Raven didn't want to talk again--she felt drained--but there wasn't much chance of sleeping either.

Winter spoke to Shine and Wally first, before the others had been gathered with them again.

"We reacted poorly earlier," she said. "But after talking it out more, I think we can agree that there's something in what you said. We just need more details. Also...what is happening to Oscar, really?"

Wally glanced at Shine.

"Even I don't really know," he said. "I'm still too new to this. Has this happened before?"

Shine walked around the dojo's floor a little, looking out the sliding glass door of it.

"I have seen something like this before," she said slowly. "My friend, Raven--not this Raven, a different one--she inherited evil magic from her mother. She used to struggle with it. It would work against her...but when it came to it, it was easy to fall back on it. That was a tough choice, trying to let it go. However, it didn't take over her mind...usually."

"Really?" Wally said. "Wow...the most I usually see are weird inventions and magical, possessive rocks."

"There was that other Raven," Shine reminded him. "The Teen Titans one we met. Same thing really...that one might be closer, actually."

"Yeah...wow, that is kind of similar...evil demon dad...dark magic..." Wally grimaced.

"I sincerely hope both of you are exaggerating," Winter said.

They weren't.

"Oh..." Winter said. "Well...still...have you ever defeated anything as powerful as the gods before?"

A reasonable question after what Shine had said before.

"In person? I don't know how to answer that," Shine said. "Wally, would you say Darkseid was as powerful as them? Or Trigon?"

"Maybe at the end," Wally said. "But a whole planet? I don't know, they still seem on another level to me...but then again, my friends and I never ask how tough someone is. We just fight."

"That is true," Shine said. "One of the things I most admire about the League is how little they care if they're outmatched. People get too technical. Did David ask if he was outmatched by Goliath? Did Samson ask if he couldn't slay 1,000 Philistines? Did Gideon ask if he could defeat the enemy armies?--yes, he did. That was a trick one. But he did it anyway."

"I have no idea whom you are speaking of," Winter said. 

Qrow and Raven finally came in--Raven looked like she'd been dragged there, practically.

"I really don't want to talk again," she said.

"Then listen." Shine looked at her. "Then decide."

Raven frowned.

Qrow sighed.

"Well, I'll be the bigger person, I guess," he said. "I snapped at both of you earlier. That was going too far. I don't know why I always do that."

"It's no big," Wally said. 

"But it is," Winter spoke. "Perhaps it's understandable, but we shouldn't be blaming you for this."

"Did you discuss that earlier?" Raven said tightly.

"Were you listening?" Winter suddenly gave her a severe look.

"Not exactly," Raven said.

"It's just what you did to Oscar," Qrow moved on, "I didn't like it."

"She was trying to help him," Wally said.

"Yeah, well, I get that, now." Qrow frowned. "But it didn't look like it was helping."

"It doesn't always, at first," Shine mused.

"It did startle me that you just...stuck your sword in like that," Winter said. "I suppose it didn't hurt him...but I forget that part."

"I think it did hurt him," Raven said, "on the inside... Are you going to do that to us? We all have magic, don't we?"

Apparently she'd thought of the same thing Qrow had. "Come on, I can't be the only one who's wondering if you're not just looking to purge us all of our powers."

"I thought you wanted that," Wally said, before Shine could warn him to be more tactful.

Raven's gaze hardened. "Not if it's just going to be ripped out of me."

"Who said anything about that?" Shine said. "I think you're confusing us with Cinder, here."

"Oh, and let's not forget she's here." Raven sounded like she was getting upset again. "If that arm of hers grows back, we're all next. I've felt that before, unlike you." With a look at Winter.

Then back at Shine. "But even Qrow has magic, doesn't he? Do you just see us all as tainted?"

"Raven," Shine said, "the only one who is saying that is you."

Silence.

"Yeah, I don't really think that way," Wally added after a pause. 

"But you've said you can sense our magic," Raven said. "Just like Ozpin's."

"I don't think less of you for that," Shine said.

"That implies that you could," Winter said, noticing the wording was a little odd here.

"I made it quite clear I thought those powers were bad for you," Shine said. "Before, you didn't object to that idea. Why is now any different?"

"Right now, we need them," Qrow said. "That's the problem. You seem set on getting rid of them."

Wally and Shine exchanged a look.

"I want you all to try to do something," Shine asked, in such a steady, calm tone that it was almost like she was trying to talk them off a ledge. "Just very slowly, ask yourselves why exactly the thought of that is bothering you so much."

A pause again.

"Because..." Winter began, then stopped.

"The Vault to Atlas is gone," Shine said, slowly still. "Do you even need those powers?"

"I...but..." Winter wondered exactly at what point she'd become so intent on this. Why? "They are useful."

"They also draw Salem," Shine said. "They are a setback just as much as they are useful. You don't need them. You're stronger without them, in fact, really."

"That's not true," Raven said.

"Factoring in the amount of people who are after us for them, I think it's a fair point," Shine said. "As for you, Raven, once we put that Sword away, do you really need the power anymore?"

"I..." Raven also paused.

"And didn't you not like being a target?" Shine said.

"Well..." Raven hesitated. "But still...without them..."

"You'd be a lot happier," Wally said. "Salem wouldn't care that much. I mean, maybe she would, a little, but Cinder at least wouldn't have any reason to follow you around."

"What exactly are you two saying?" Qrow wanted to know.

"Are you going to yell at us again?" Shine asked, with a note of real concern.

Qrow and Raven both looked down.

"Besides, isn't it clear?" Shine shrugged. "At first I thought you didn't want the magic anymore. Now it sounds as if you are worried about losing it."

"Losing it too soon, yes," Winter said.

"What about at all?" Shine asked.

Winter hadn't even thought about it.

"Is that possible?" she asked. "Besides...dying?"

"One would assume, if Ozpin ends his quest here, his magic will go with him," Shine said. "I trust you all didn't forget that that is where all of you, and Vara and Cinder, get your magic from. You're like his children, both literally and figuratively, just as whoever receives the same power as us is like our child or sibling, in a symbolic sense--but literally too, almost. And those two powers are in conflict... Surely you see that. This starts with you, with all of you, but even more with those of you who carry the literal powers inside. Is your objection to confronting the gods merely logical? Or was there something else in it?"

Wally winced. "I didn't think of that either. But that can't actually explain how they think...can it?"

The look Shine gave him didn't bode well for the answer.

"Are you saying that this is affecting how we think?" Raven put a hand to her head. "No, that's impossible, because I never liked these powers. They are just necessary."

"That is how it starts," Shine said. "Always. It's necessary... It's harmless... I just want to know what it's like. I'm just curious." She sounded like she was reciting. "I have to do it for the good of--insert name here--. We have a metaphor for this in my world, by one of our writers, Tolkien. With the power. He said that it was like you love and hate it the way you love and hate yourself. I've seen it work the same with addictions, and power is an addiction. I didn't wish to alarm you, because fear only makes this process work faster. I suppose that is why Ozpin always kept things secret...but knowledge is also power. If Oscar's struggle is becoming visible, you were bound to ask us sooner or later how this affects you... I didn't like to bring it up."

"I don't follow," Qrow said. "Unless you're saying that all of us are in the same boat as Oscar."

"Not yet," Shine said.

That was chilling.

"But...we will be?" Raven said.

"I doubt it will work like that," Shine said. "It's not a curse for you, exactly. You're just...joined to it. In a way. The Maiden cycle is because Ozpin's curse is a cycle. You are one part of it, but just like his hosts, it costs your life to be in it. There is a reason that the Maiden powers work the way they do--I talked about this once before. They can only work how Ozpin's work, and he can't help but pass on his curse with them, because they were a part of him, and something of all we are goes into our powers and our works. There is good in it despite ourselves--but it is always despite ourselves, in the case of curses. You all have more freedom than Ozpin because it is only part of his power that you carry, but you all carry it. This much should have been apparent once we began speaking of that at all... I think maybe you didn't want to know."

She was right.

Qrow had wondered, but this was worse than he could have thought.

He looked at his hands.

"But Qrow's power doesn't work that way." Raven was perspiring. "They don't pass on."

"Are you sure of that?" Shine asked. "He hasn't died. But the magic can't just die, can it? Clearly magic doesn't die. It changes forms. Which is true enough, because spiritual entities do not die, they mutate. You actually cannot kill spirits. It's a very ancient principle. That is why we believe in heaven and hell in our faith."

"How do those relate?" Winter sat down. She was looking a bit sick.

"Yeah, how?" Wally asked Shine. "Because you can't die just once?"

"Yes," Shine said. "But also because spirits cannot be truly destroyed. They are eternal, as I said. That is why hell is eternal. Because there is no other way to kill a spirit than eternally killing it. It will go on, otherwise. Either it goes into eternal life or death, but there is no end to it, like an infinity ♾ symbol. The body can die once--twice, even. The spirit never will naturally. That is why we call it supernatural."

"So magic is spiritual," Wally said. "And that's why it never dies."

"It only moves," Shine confirmed. "Either it returns to Ozpin, or it will go on to someone else. That is why we have hesitated to just remove the Maiden power from Vara directly without a better plan. I thought it might make Oscar's struggle harder... The powers being split for the time being is better in one way and one way only, that more people means more willpower to fight it. But seriously, you see that this curse is extended? The Maidens are always going to be part of Ozpin's quest as long as they exist, because they are part of his magic, and each is tied to his curse, or he would not pass it on to each host. And that is only rational, because magic is from the gods, and it is the same magic that holds him in his forms that he is able to use. I told Oscar that is why using magic merges them faster." [You have to love the show has confirmed this is the case but doesn't explore why. My explanation is the only one that makes sense.]

"This goes for me also?" Qrow had never thought of it. "Do you mean that my power will go on if I die?"

"Or back to Ozpin," Shine said. "He hasn't tested it with you yet. You and Raven are his first transformations, I take it...but it's inevitable. All his other power works that way. You could not be an exception. Best case scenario, it goes back to him. Because it's only a small amount, it might not be that bad, but the risk is too much. For Oscar anyway."

"Miss Likstar, I wish you'd told us this ages ago," Winter said, putting her hand to her temples.

"Would it have helped you?" Shine asked. "You didn't trust us enough to consider any solutions to it. It would just have made you more upset."

"I guess it isn't that much new information." Raven was pacing now. "But it's troubling to think...that we'll never escape."

"Vara has tried for years to escape," Shine said. "Only made it worse. The harder you try to flee this kind of thing, the worse it becomes."

"Kanap's experiments didn't make her weaker," Winter said, realizing it. "They just made it more painful. Is that what you meant?"

"I also have begun to suspect that her particular problem she has only got worse because of Victoria," Shine said. "One might attribute it to her own Semblance issue--which still hasn't been fully explained to me, but I think I've got it mostly pieced together. Just being around her I could sense it. But if the experiments unbalanced you two, they likely did the same to her. Just, with nothing to compare to, Victoria would have assumed it was just her personal problem to begin with. That's the problem about experimenting on damaged people--you have a lot of unknowns."

"Vara dug her own grave," Qrow said soberly.

"Literally, almost," Wally said. "Funny...not really funny. Actually, that's really sad."

"But the powers aren't any weaker," Shine agreed with Winter. "Just less controlled. So you see how useless it is to try her method. Even if she could pull it off, this starts all over again. No escape that way. So when we say we want the gods out of the picture, that is for all of you also. I'm already sick of seeing their curse consume people's lives, and I've only been here for a few months. Aren't you?"

"I should have realized before that the end of Ozpin's curse would mean the end of these powers for us," Raven said. "No Relics--we'd not need them... I would have thought that thought would be a relief...so why do I feel such fear?"

She rubbed her arms. "It makes no sense."

Shine and Wally exchanged another look. Wally wasn't sure what was going on, but he had a gut feeling.

"She's had them too long, right?" he said. "Just like that story. I mean, I'm not really a LOTR guy, but I remember that part."

"Astute," Shine said. "But we can't blame just that... There are plenty of other problems in this besides the magic--but magic makes it worse. I hate to say this, but since we're putting this out there, that hostility you keep showing towards us."

Qrow winced at that.

"I think it's not just you," Shine said. "I mean, I know you're angry and discouraged, but you always lashed out at us more than other people. I wanted to take it personally, but after I saw Oscar do that, when he's never done it before, it clicked for me. It's always the way--there's something inside you that knows it's in conflict if with us. We threaten it. It's small...sometimes...but this stuff is always stronger when you're already upset. Darkness always is. The magic is from the god of darkness anyway, and he is always stronger when there is fear, or anger, or despair. It all makes sense once you know what to look for."

Winter rubbed her temples some more. "I would argue with you, but I notice that all the magical people in the team have had issues with you. Even Vara seems apprehensive."

"Wait a moment," Qrow said. "Winter has never had any problem with you. This can't be right."

"Well--" Shine glanced at Winter. "--is that really true?"

Winter glanced at her strangely.

"I..." She hesitated. "I'm not sure it is."

"What?" Raven said. "You've been their biggest supporter next to Nikos and Pine."

"I know," Winter said. "But I wasn't at first. And my first inclination has usually been to dissent with them, an inclination I suppress with effort, but there is something in me that is not fully comfortable with their powers. Perhaps not as much as Ozpin isn't. I don't know how much it's bothering me. But I could believe it's there."

"Well, don't lose sleep over it. That only makes it worse," Shine said. "There's no reason to become too alarmed. Just because you resist it doesn't mean this owns any of you. You have a choice still. But it just makes it harder. It means that you will have to try more. But in the long run, sometimes magic affects very little for some people. I can't tell you why it's more on some than others. Curses will affect every member of a family except one sometimes. Maybe it's just so someone can help. Maybe it's that no power other than God's is perfect enough to control everyone. That said, it's still dangerous. And if there is an irrational part of you that fears us or dreads us...that might be what to look at. But don't feed it by worrying so much."

"How could this not worry us?" Raven said. "I don't want to end up like Pine."

"That's very unlikely," Shine said, trying to sound calm still. "It's not as strong as his."

"Then how bad are we looking at?" Qrow asked.

"In your case, I doubt it would be more than a small nudge," Shine said. "The Maidens...I'm not sure yet. We'll have to see. But it's not actually your fear of anything we can do that's the big problem, it's that you're drawn to Ozpin, to do things his ways. That's what I'm concerned about."

"That makes it sound like the deck is stacked against us," Wally said.

"It always has been." Shine glanced at him. "Our victory is never the most likely outcome, Wally. That has always been true of all people like us. We beat the odds, or we don't win. All redemption really is against the odds. Why would this be any different?"

[I was talking about this to my family in regard to redemption arcs. People argue for them being more or less likely, but the thing is that redemption in of itself is never the likely outcome of any character's arc, because it means a total 180 from what they are currently like. It's not going to look believable if it's totally different from them. It's not about their past behavior, really, so much as what they could be like. Which is why it's hard to say any character is irredeemable. It's how well it's done, not how likely it is, that should decide that. There may be some characters that are just too irrational to be capable of repentance, but that's rare. For the most part, any character could possibly be redeemed if it was done properly.]

"That's great to hear." Qrow was mad. "All this time..."

"Qrow, please," Shine said, still somehow calmly. "I know this is upsetting, but it's nothing new. We've talked about this many times, at least in part. That you didn't fully understand us is not my fault, it is just your lack of information and, may I say, desire to understand most of the time. This is why I questioned if you actually wanted to hear this."

Raven threw her hands up.

"How much can we expect this to affect us going forward?" Winter asked. "I mean...do you have a guess?"

"It's hard between worlds to know what will happen," Shine said. "But based on patterns...we should just be wary of any fighting or confusion that is seeming like it's coming out of nowhere. Usually there's something else going on with that happens. Like our fight earlier... True, we did spring a lot on you--but something about you all reacting wasn't quite right, I thought. By now you know what we want. Why does it always surprise you? Isn't it that it's not a surprise, it's just somehow aggravating you? Stressing you out? What if you call it a surprise because you can't explain it any other way?"

That was making too much sense in light of Qrow's realization...

He leaned on the wall, though that hurt.

Once he was away from them, he noted, he'd felt calmer...and just talking to them again was stressing him out. But why? There was nothing new in what they were saying except that it was more detailed.

But no...the idea of magic had always made him uncomfortable around them...and how had he never thought that it was because he had it? That was the most sensible explanation, even from an emotional standpoint, let alone when talking about the curse.

"We don't fight all the time, though," Wally said. "I mean, we get along a lot also. Is that because this isn't as strong?"

"Well, Ozpin has never been comfortable around us," Shine said. "But with everyone else, I think it's just that when we're not talking about this subject, it's not a problem. That's my explanation anyway. In the most strong curses, it might be all the time, but that's not the case here."

"Is that why at times you're a calming influence," Winter mused aloud, "but others it's like kerosene on fire?"

"Probably, and I'm just like that anyway." Shine shrugged. "I tend to stir the pot, and darkness doesn't like that. But that part doesn't help... I'm sorry that this is upsetting you all. It's...not easy for me either."

She looked troubled.

"But it's not like it's your fault," Wally said, "or any of the others'... Ozpin is the one who chose this..."

"Well, that's not entirely true." Qrow, as usual, had to say something to make it worse. "Raven did choose it...and then I chose my power... Ice Queen is the only one who didn't."

"Yes...and notably she is the least affected," Shine said. "Even if you feel it, Winter, the fact that you don't act on it says a lot. You could just be more disciplined, but somehow that doesn't make sense when Raven is also much less emotional in general."

Raven raised an eyebrow. But it was true.

"Oh..." Winter sat up suddenly, eyes wide. "You told me the way you get power matters, that it changes the nature of it...in Atlas. Is...is that why?"

Shine didn't even have to speak, she just looked at her and they knew.

"Holy crap." Qrow was impressed that they'd warned them about that that long ago--and also scared.

Raven muttered some curses.

"It's always weaker when it's not your choice," Shine added, to clarify more. "That's also how it works. But proximity is still a way to get magic... Sorry."

"This is not your fault," Winter said. "I put myself in line for it. Even so, I'm not sure it would have been better if it was anyone else. As you say, we divided the power to make it weaker. Nothing would change except that someone even less suited to it would have it. But about Miss Sol, she got it from Summer willingly...but it still affected her negatively."

"You think this also doesn't have a pattern?" Shine said.

She walked around a bit and stood in front of the sliding glass again.

"I've thought about this ever since we heard the story," she said. "But I didn't want to talk about it and upset Theo further. I guess now might be the time to share. I don't want to upset Qrow or Raven though."

"Just say it." Raven was going to go stark mad if she kept stalling.

Qrow nodded. Even though she was looking toward the window, she saw it in the reflection, and she drew a deep breath and continued:

"Summer must have either been killed, or killed herself to keep that power away from Salem," she said. "Now, what no one has noticed yet, though we've talked about this also, is that it looks oddly as if Summer just couldn't hold the powers herself. Vara's retelling of what happened made it seem as if she almost did. It makes more sense. Vienta must have been with Summer."

"Summer died immediately after her," Winter said. "She didn't have time to use the powers."

"Yes...that's one possible explanation," Shine said. "But it's funny none of you even thought of the other one."

"Other one...?" Raven said warily.

Shine's eyes blazed for a moment, and she looked back at them.

"Her eyes," she said. "Silver Eyes work against the god of darkness, which is where the Maiden powers come from. I think it's very likely that a Silver-Eyed person can't actually become a Maiden."

A pause.

[I might be the most proud of this interpersonal lore in the story. The way the magic system works here is, I think, a lot smoother of an explanation than the show's bits and pieces of lore. And it fits in the story so well, and shows why Ozpin's curse spreads so much. Also helps tie up the Silvery Eyed part.

Sorry to geek out, but, I do love world building in my fics, so I get excited.