"So we need a few more days," Shine told Rumi that evening.

"Because you want to wait for one of those brats to recover?" Rumi said in disbelief. "Uh, not to be harsh here, but, can't you just get over that?"

"I can't believe you even thought to preface that by 'not to be harsh' but you know, that still makes it harsh." Shine said. "That's my baby you're talking about. And we need her, and we're not gonna rush this and regret it later."

"And just how many more delays do you need to have?" Rumi grumbled.

"Oh stop whining like a 12 year old." Shine said. "Woman up, as a friend of mine likes to say. I'm sure you have plenty of hero work to keep you busy."

"People are dying, Likstar."

"Not to sound callous, but people are always dying, Rumi." Shine said. "And they won't die any slower if we do something stupid. Do you want to get played again? I don't want to make a move until we are all ready, because once we move, we have to move fast. I'm not even sure my kids are ready, I wouldn't involve them if I had options. But this is our group here, and I'm sure God has chosen it for a reason."

"Age is just a number." Rumi said.

"I suppose that means you're letting Medea participate?"

"I...don't know if she should. If we run into her little s--- brother again, I don't know if she can take it." Rumi said.

"And now you know how I feel." Shine said. "But, much as I don't want to put her through that, it's her choice if she wants to try to face him, you know that, right?"

"Now you sound like Shigaraki. I think Compress is not ready either."

"Oh well, I think Compress proved he wasn't ready a few days ago." Shine said. "But it won't stop him. I guess he needs closure. It might be better not to try, I'd have to agree with Tomura on that one. He's literally an escape artist, he won't be pinned down unwillingly."

"What you just said amounted to: yes he's not ready, but no, I'm not gonna try to stop him." Rumi rolled her eyes.

"I do like to see you worried about them." Shine changed the subject. "It's quite cute."

"Likstar, if you don't shut up, I'm going to jump through this phone and--" Rumi stopped. Shigaraki was walking past to get coffee.

"And what?" Shine was waiting for this.

"--and...I don't know, I'll think of it when I get there."

"And I was really hoping you were going to use some Looney toons threat, since you've have to be Bugs Bunny to pull off what you just said." Shine said. "Weak...why did you stop anyway?"

"I thought better of it." Rumi lied. "Anyway, just get over here."

"No can do. Your memory is short." Shine said. "Unless you just want to hang."

"You think I want to see you, piss off!" Rumi was annoyed.

"I assume you're talking to Likstar." Shigaraki gleaned. "If that's her, tell her to hurry up with that lead."

"Like I didn't tell her that already, why don't you talk to her." Mirko shoved the phone at him.

"Hey don't do that!" Shigaraki almost dropped his cup. "Stupid--"

"Hello?" Shine said. "That you, Tomura?"

"I don't want to talk to you!"

"Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I don't want to talk to you about the request you had then." Shine shot back.

"Err...what's taking you so long?"

"I have an injured player." Shine said. "What's your excuse?"

"These people are hard to find."

"True that...but if you want to be helpful, ask that creepy doctor friend of yours to get you a list of all the places attacked in the last month. It would be good to know, in case that Karen should choose to cooperate."

"Do you intend to torture her for information if she doesn't?" Shigaraki said hopefully.

Mirko rolled her eyes.

"Not what I do, Tomura. And I'm not letting you get carried away either...the best thing to do is to get inside her head." Shine replied.

"That--sounds worse." Shigaraki said.

"I thought you would say that, but outwitting your opponent is the way I prefer to win. They'll recover from it, and they might even learn something. People don't recover too easily from torture. And I've been tortured before, I don't want to inflict that on someone else. It's horrible, I assure you. You feel small, helpless, weak, humiliated because you can't escape--its better if it's on someone else's behalf, but still."

"Why is that better?"

"Then it was a choice. We can always endure suffering we chose, it's when we think it's unfairly inflicted upon us that we wimp out."

"Huh...that's the first thing you've said that made any sense about it." Shigaraki said.

"I had a feeling you would get it, and that being the case, it won't work on Karen. Wally told me she was quite willing to undergo it before. Tricking her or outwitting her will be the only way to make her talk, we are merciful, and we are also smart, remember that. Wise as a serpent, harmless as a dove, that's our motto."

"I wouldn't call a bird harmless." Shigaraki said. "Do you know what they do--"

"Not interested in hearing it!" Shine cut him off. "And stay off the depressing part of the internet, you weirdo. Anyway, I'll see you all as soon as we're ready. Give Rumi her phone back, she'll need that later."

"I didn't want it anyway--" Shigaraki got hung up on. "That b---!"

"I'll take that back now." Mirko held out her hand, she got it thrown at her instead.

"Wow, you're acting like a spoiled brat."

"Who shoved it at me to begin with!?"

"That was like 5 minutes ago, it doesn't count." Mirko said.

"What? That makes no sense--"

"Is everything okay in here?" Spinner looked in. "You don't normally start fighting this late...why are you having coffee at this hour boss?"

"Spinner!" Shigaraki said warningly.

"Nevermind...are we moving out yet?" Spinner said.

"Out of the house, or the plan." Mirko said.

"The plan, I like the house." Spinner said. "It's very comfy."

"You mean that rock you've been sunning yourself on every day is really comfy." Mirko snorted.

"I'm meditating!"

"No, you're napping, I can tell the difference." [#references]

"Stop it with that!" Spinner said.

"I have to go make a call..." Shigaraki exited the conversation before it could get stupider.

"I think he likes that we have something to do finally," Spinner was observant for once. "It's good, when the boss isn't happy, no one is."

"He's that scary, huh?" Mirko wasn't really buying it.

"No, just kind of sad," Spinner said. "Like Compress is now, only, it's funny with Compress."

"You sure are heartless when it comes to Magic Man, what did he ever do to you?" Mirko said.

"Nothing, he just treats me like an uncultured oaf, and I think he's stuck up." Spinner huffed.

"Oh, pfft, he treats me like that too," Mirko said. "Just kick his a---."

"I can't." Spinner said.

"Oh...that's what's eating you huh." Mirko said. "Well, cheer up, just because he's more powerful than you are doesn't prove anything. You'll get the drop on him one of these days."

"You think so?"

"No," Mirko laughed.

"Why you!" Spinner reddened.

"Oh it's not your quirk, it's your attitude," Mirko said. "You think you can't, so you can't. First rule of training, really. But whatever, it's not my problem. If you want to lose, lose. But it makes you the weak link, and that's pretty pathetic."

"How can I think I'll win, when I know I won't," Spinner said. "I don't stand a chance against really powerful opponents."

"What does that have to do with it? People beat the odds all the time."

"But I don't!" Spinner said.

"Yeah, well, you know Spinner, you can't ride the League's coattails forever, sooner or later you'll have to win on your own." Mirko felt like she was quoting one of her teachers now...she didn't even remember which one. "So, get an attitude adjustment."

"It's easy for you to say, you can level buildings." Spinner said.

"Well, I couldn't do that when I was a kid...but that didn't stop me from trying..." Mirko said. "I don't get your whole defeatist attitude about your quirk."

Spinner had never had anyone really encourage him on the subject before, which perhaps was the real difference between them, but he didn't know this.

"It's just not useful..." he grumbled. "Stain didn't have a powerful quirk either, but people still cared about him. But no matter what I do, I can't be that influential."

"I'd say that has more to do with you not having anything to say," Mirko said. "Not that I liked Stain...kind of thought that was overhyped...but then the public loves a scandal around heroes...but it's not like it was ever about how he used his quirk, it was about why."

"Why was to stop heroes." Spinner said, glaring. "Ones like you."

Mirko frowned at him. "Not this again."

"Heroes shouldn't be paid for saving people!"

"Villains shouldn't be paid for killing them." Mirko shot back.

Shine had once used that same logic, and Spinner hadn't known how to answer it that time either...so he was silent.

"For the record, I do what I do because I like it," Mirko shrugged, crossing her arms. "But getting paid for it means I can do it more. Otherwise, I'd have to have another, boring, life sucking job, and that would be the absolute worst. Getting paid to destroy crime means more crime get destroyed. Not sure what your problem with it is."

"It's not very noble." Spinner said.

"I guess if that was the only reason, it's not like heroes don't do things without being paid, too," Mirko gestured lazily. "Like literally all I've been doing tracking down these d--- ninja, for example. I don't care about money, but I do need it to survive, why should I feel guilty for that? You expect heroes to be more than human, these ethereal beings that don't need money or food or society or whatever to survive, but we're still people. I sound like Likstar, but maybe that's what she's about, and you're the one with the idealized view of heroes."

Spinner frowned. "If I think that, then so do millions of other people."

"Well, I can't control what the public thinks," Mirko said. "Not really my goal either, that's more of the League's thing, if you think about it. I've never given much credit to public opinion, but it's useful to have the public like us in order to do what we do. And they might as well like heroism, it beats liking something worse, so I don't mind the hype either. I guess some people let it go to their heads, but that's their problem. I think, you really just don't know that much about heroes, you're like some Neet who thinks he knows stuff from reading things online about it, but if you spent even 5 minutes talking to a real hero, you'd know it's bulls--- what people think about heroes. No one can take you seriously if you don't even know what you're talking about."

Spinner had never been destroyed with such merciless swiftness...he winced. "That's...just harsh."

"I'm just being real." Mirko rolled her eyes. "I've been dying to say that for months, honestly, just never bothered. I get real sick of listening to all of you rail against heroes like you know anything about them. But I can take it from Shigaraki a little more, at least he hates heroes because of something that actually happens, whether it's really our fault or not, but maybe the hype is too much. I can understand that, even if it's stupid. But you, I don't get at all, Spinner, you hate heroes for just needing to survive like anyone else. And if Stain thought that too, he's an idiot also."

"Hey!" Spinner said. "Stain was a revolutionary."

"If he had a few good points, then whatever." Mirko shrugged. "I never gave much thought to it, personally."

"You don't think he's right that heroes are shallow?"

"Some are."

"And that they aren't selfless?"

"Depends on the person... no one is selfless all of the time." Mirko was quite right about that. "So, still, unrealistic." 

Spinner thought. "Well, he thought All Might was worthy. So more heroes should be like him."

"So Shigaraki hates All Might for creating the exact problem Stain is talking about?" Mirko said.

Spinner faltered. "Well...uh...people have different ideas about it."

"Imagine that." Mirko was sarcastic. Shine would have been proud. "See, you don't even know what you mean."

"Oh shut up." Spinner said. "I admit, I'm not sure about all that anymore. But, I do like Shigaraki's idea of a freer world. That would solve the problem."

"What exactly is it you all mean by that, no one's really explained." Mirko started eating a carrot.

"Well, it's still kind of vague, but, a world where people can just do what they want, freely." Spinner said. "No heroes, no villains really, just freedom."

"Sounds asinine."

"How can you say that? You just want things to stay the same."

"Actually, I'm disillusioned with the idea of heroes as symbols of whatever, myself." Mirko shrugged. "Makes them too reliant on All Might, but, at the same time, without some system here, I don't see how we'd be free. Wouldn't everyone just be out for themselves?"

"You of all people ought to like that." Spinner huffed. "You don't want to rely on anyone."

Mirko thought. "Directly, I suppose that is true. But...I'm not going to go as far as saying I can just do it all myself. There's not enough time in the day, society needs a system of some sort to keep it running."

"But a better system, based on people doing what they want."

"I just don't see how that would work." Mirko shook her head. "I hate political theory...but even I can see the obvious problem with anarchy."

"Well this won't be anarchy. We'll be in charge."

"Oh great, the guys who don't have a clue what they really want will lead the rest of the newly destroyed world." Mirko said. "What did I expect?"

Spinner scowled at her. "Don't mock us."

"You know, at some level, I get where you're coming from," Mirko munched casually, ignoring him. "But I don't see your ideas working."

"I guess time will tell," Spinner retreated to lofty ground.

"I just don't get one more thing. Why do you need to achieve this by killing people?" Mirko said. "Couldn't you just...overthrow the government or something?"

"How would we do that without killing people?"

"I don't know, Likstar pulls it off."

"True, but she refuses to share her methods with us." Spinner said. "Killing people is unavoidable."

"The one thing heroes can't do is the one thing you claim you can't not do." Mirko noted. "I just find that ironic. Essentially, we'd be the same if your moral compass was aligned more north. Heck, I might even have liked you freaks. At least you're different. But as it stands..."

"Perhaps it is a shame," Spinner admitted. "If more heroes were like you, willing to challenge the ideals of the old system, then maybe total annihilation wouldn't have been the only route, but as it stands..."

Awkward silence.

"Well, life is weird like that." Mirko dropped the subject. "I'm going to bed." She left the room.

[Aside from the irony of this conversation, I find it ironic in general that the canon show really is no different. Heroes and villains are not that different, villains carry it farther, but pretty soon even that line would be erased by heroes being willing to kill villains to stop them.

At that point, how are they any different? Being a hero isn't a job, it's a mindset, and the Pro heroes aren't all heroic, if risking your life makes you a hero, than the LOV are heroes too. It's the lack of any real measure that matters that makes the whole conflict feel like a kind of cruel joke at the entire world's expense. Kind of see why Shine and Wally find it so frustrating in this story. Just food for thought.]

***

A few days did pass, Shigaraki did what Shine asked of him, and Ujiko was able to oblige.

He seemed ecstatic to see Shigaraki getting ready to take revenge. Shigaraki didn't bother to tell him that if Shine had her way, it probably would not shape up to be much of a revenge. But he thought too, that if he got the chance to pay back whoever took Kurogiri, as well as Silk for betraying them, he would still take it, whether Shine liked it or not.

But the odds of that were slim enough.

Ujiko wanted to finish up Shigaraki's "enhancements" before the whole thing, but it didn't look like there would be enough time. So he said they'd have to do it afterward.

Shigaraki would have cared less about it if he wasn't wondering about the LOV's chances at this point of fending off another full on attack. They were just too vulnerable.

Even with that being finished though, he wasn't sure the odds were enough.

It was true Likstar and her crew were acting as back up, but that couldn't last forever...

The whole thing made him angrier than ever about the Originals, and anxious to take them down. He didn't recognize it as a need to regain control, but that is what it was.

The meeting place they decided on had to be away from the school as well as the hiding house, so Hawks suggested a restaurant that was on the top floor of an office building.

Hawks was still intent on helping with all this. Mirko didn't stop him, even if she was still mad at him.

Shine and Wally chose only a select bunch of the crew to come with them. The three main kids, Camie, and Monama because he and Medea wanted to work together.

Medea had put on makeup, to Mirko's annoyance.

"The point is to look ready for war, not to try to impress someone." She said.

"So, this is how I look ready for war," Medea shot back. "I can be girly even if you aren't."

"You better check that attitude if you're going to help," Mirko warned.

"Whatever, I'll behave on the job, but get off my back." Medea waved her off.

"You ever think this has to be karma for something you did in the past?" Compress said to Mirko snidely.

"Shut up." She said.

At the actual restaurant, Hawks bragged that he'd gotten the whole floor reserved just for them.

"Endeavor and I do lunch here sometimes." He said.

"Why?" Shoto asked.

"Oh, you know, to talk shop...not that he's much of a talker..." Hawks admitted. "But I can try. Anyway, when he does actually say something it's surprisingly observant."

"Ha, that's just what I thought," Shine said.

"Well, I guess we should summon her." Wally rubbed his hands together. "If we still can."

Shine closed her eyes. "I feel like I can see her...summon is a weird way to say it, she's not a ghost, we just need to open a door is all. And be ready."

She opened her eyes, they were glowing brightly.

"Is there a reason they do that?" Spinner fidgeted nervously. [Get it, like a Fidget Spinner? Ha...I'll see myself out...]

"You know, we've been trying to guess that." Wally said. "Sometimes, I really think it's just to mess with us. It's not something she can control."

"I think it's when she's really serious about what she's saying." Momo said. "That's when I observe it."

"Well it's freaking scary..." Spinner muttered.

"Eh, people who associate it with powering up tend to think so," Wally admitted. "I have two friends whose eyes glow all the time so I guess I'm not as bugged."

A doorway opened. Horizontally a few feet from the floor.

Immediately, a small woman came falling through it screaming in surprise.

But the LOV recognized her, so did Wally and Medea and Mirko and Hawks.

The ninja woman wasn't wearing her ninja garb though, she prepared to have been in her own home, she was wearing regular clothes and she had slippers on.

Understandably, she was terrified to see a bunch of heroes and villains all staring at her, with unfriendly looks.

"You?!" She said.

"You." Shigaraki said distastefully.

"Ah!" Karen scrambled to her feet and pulled a throwing star out of some internal pocket.

Wally grabbed her wrist. "Ah, no, sorry, Karen. We need to talk. I'm sure you know what we want."

Karen used her other hand to try to pull out a pill and pop it into her mouth, but Wally stopped her there too.

"Is that...wow you guys are committed," he said distastefully.

"I won't talk!" Karen struggled, but Wally was way stronger than her. "I won't! You might as well just kill me."

"We'd be happy to do that." Compress said. "But not just yet."

"I remember you!" Karen looked at Shine and Wally. "I know what you did in Canada."

"Admitting that was your first mistake," Shine said. "Because that means you probably know what we want to know. I'm surprised they let you live after we caught you. You remember us too. Were you useful for information perhaps? Since you did get to speak with Wally at some length. I'm sure you related to them how we're merciful in practice. They took one of our students."

She pulled out her sword and pointed it at Karen. "We're not happy about that. One way or another, Karen, you're going to tell us what we want. If you fight it, it's only going to make it more painful, but we won't let you take that most drastic way out of it either, we value human life too much for that. We're your worst opponent. We're too nice to kill you, but we're not nice enough not to interrogate you."

Karen frowned. "I'm not scared of you."

"I know that's a lie." Shine said. "It would be pretty stupid not to be after all that went down. Lightning strikes, whole camps destroyed. I mean, we can do what seems impossible, can't we? I won't take the credit for that, but I do believe it will happen again. So, I know you're going to talk, Karen. I'm sure you were put in our path for a reason. Perhaps you are meant to be delivered from this death cult you're in...or perhaps you're destined to meet the same end as anyone else who does what you do and doesn't turn back from it. I don't know. But I do know we'll find out very soon."

Her vagueness was probably more effective than direct threats would have been on one of the Originals, because it was hard to know what she meant.

Karen bit her lip. "Even if I wanted to, I couldn't talk. They kill snitches. So I'd be dead if you didn't kill me anyway."

"If so, they'll probably kill you if you report that this happened." Shine said. "Are you that committed?"

Karen nodded. "I don't have anything to say to quirk devils like all of you, and you two, you're not cursed, but you help them, so you're just as bad."

Mirko glared at her. "Oh shut up."

Shine tilted her head. "I see...All right Karen, what's you real name."

"You don't need to know that," Karen said. "This insulting name you've given me is a joke, but that suits you, just keep using it. I wouldn't do you the honor of knowing my real name."

"Karen is an ironic name for you," Shine muttered. "It means pure."

"Wait, like Kayla?" Wally said.

"Yes, the Ka- is the same root meaning." Shine said.

"Oh..cool...that is ironic." Wally said.

"Well..." Shine said. "I know you're all anxious to begin tormenting her," she meant the LOV. "But I have an idea first. Karen, you know by  now you can't escape us, so are you willing to cooperate?"

"I don't want to." Karen said. "But I also can't stop you. But it won't change my mind."

"What are we going to do?" Wally asked Shine aside.

"I intend to try the civil approach first." Shine said  "Then if that fails, we'll be forced to try something else. I need you to run to Germany for me."

"Oh... that kind of civilized." Wally said. "Wow..."

"It's worth a shot." Shine said.

"Okay." Wally said.

***

"Why are we in Germany?" Spinner asked, just about 5 minutes later.

"And what part of Germany is this?" Momo asked. "It just looks like..." she trailed off.

It was a camp.

"It's still here huh." Wally said.

"It's illegal here to hide the past." Shine said. "Germany take responsibility for its actions, I'll give it that."

"Why am I here?" Karen asked.

"I thought a visual might help with what I'm about to say." Shine turned to face her. "I don't know how else to make this point Karen. You have the gall to claim quirks are the worst evil to befall mankind. But here we have literal examples of what man can do without quirks, but with just sheer willpower, and numbers, and an insane ideology. No better place to show you that than where it happened. Do you want to go to the museum and hear it for yourself? Or shall I tell you just the stories I know."

"Stop." Karen said.

Shine grabbed her by the arm and yanked her with surprising force further into the site.

The other people there paid none of them any mind, they were too focused on the site themselves.

"This is like one really messed up Magic School Bus field trip." Wally said to the kids, trying to lighten the mood.

"I understand why Shine did this," Momo said, holding Shoto's hand. "But, I'm still...wishing we weren't here."

"This is kind of sick." Bakugo said. "I mean, not coming here, but...what people do to each other."

Camie nodded.

Medea shivered. "I don't get it... I never learned about this. Can someone explain?"

"I only know about this from old movies," Monama said "but..." he began to explain the holocaust to her in brief.

"I hate this..." Spinner shivered.

Shine dragged Karen to the edge of the camp where you could still see trenches.

"I want you to look at this," she said, dead serious. "And I want you to listen to me. Regular humans did this. Regular humans can be just as devilish as anyone with a quirk has ever been. Do you understand me?"

Karen yanked away from her. "It's easy for you to say that! But people suffer from quirks. You wouldn't know what that's like. And this doesn't change anything. This happened almost 200 years ago now, things are different."

"Some things you do not forget." Shine said. "Until the world itself is forgotten...this happened to my people." She frowned at Karen. "We are quite familiar with what it is like to be hated for what we can't help."

She tugged her hair. "And, I do not like people who hate just because of things others cannot help. I hoped showing you this in person would knock the idea that quirkless people are so pure out of your head. Do you persist in holding it?"

Well...in the face of this...it was kind of be hard for Karen to argue with her.

"Even if quirkless people do evil," she said. "That does not mean quirks aren't accursed. This changes nothing."

"Well, if that's how you feel" Shine said. "Then I guess we're done here. It was worth a shot. Let's go back now."

"That was one hardcore way to teach an object lesson," Hawks muttered. "I think I'm seeing why portals are so scary now. I mean, can you imagine, someone could throw you into the middle of a volcano, or the sea, or outer space even...and no one could stop them, or trace you..."

"Yeah," Mirko's ears went back. "Glad they're on our side."

Medea was crying. "I didn't like this lesson at all...I want to go back."

"I'm sorry," Shine said to her. "We're going now. I thought an intense example might shake such an intense delusion, but some people will not be swayed...but I'm sorry."

"That makes two countries we've gone to illegally..." Monama muttered.

[Well...that got dark.

But is important to keep in mind that the Originals have a very censored view of the world that probably involves ignoring pretty much all human history that's pre-quirk, which all of us in the real world know, would destroy their ideology.

Sometimes a shocking truth will do the job, but, often it takes time to sink in. I guess we'll have to see if this Karen can learn or not.]