Hiya,

I'm Lina from @adultfiction and wanted to share my recent discovery with you. Stacey's "After Humanity" is one of the 2017 Watty Winners, and an outstanding read. An unusual topic as well, presented in an unusual way - as one of the protagonists is an eight year old child, Rachel.

Stacey, perhaps you would like to introduce your literary baby yourself – what is After Humanity in a nutshell? Speaking of nutshell - you did some great pitmad pitches, I really envied you for those.

Stacey:

Awe thanks! Well here is my quick pitch:

Human veal is on the menu but 8yo Rachel is determined to convince her new master she doesn't belong on his dinner plate.

-Planet of the Apes + Hannibal Lecter

Pretty much, After Humanity is set in a world where human are livestock. The story is told from the POV of an eight year old girl who is sold as veal and the POV of the ethical farmer who buys her.

Adultfiction: What made you write this story? Is there a triggering incident, or did the story just want to be written so to speak?

Stacey: Happy to say there wasn't a specific triggering incident? No sibla showed up at my door demanding my young (hehe I joke ;-)) (Adultfiction- AAAARGH. And for those of you who haven't read the book yet, the Sibla are the new lords of our worlds, the ones who have an - shall we say - acquired taste for humans?) .

I would say the story/topic did kind of grow naturally and demand that I write it. In fact, it was another story that first inspired After Humanity.

I was working on my fantasy series: The Pure One ( the series to which my posted epic fantasy A Dangerous Destiny belongs) and had conceived of a race of cannibalistic fae. As I delved into research on cannibalism in general, it forced me to start asking myself what it was about the topic that was so taboo. I mean animals eat meat. Humans are animals. Why was the idea of humans being eaten so very horrifying? Was is hypocritical to be horrified by it? After all, humans eat other animals and have for the entire history of our species. And modern humans do more than just eat animals...we raise them for slaughter.

I have a very mixed relationship with eating meat in general. I was a vegetarian/ ocassional pescaterian for 10+ years. I went back to eating meat. Why? Well to be honest? I started to wonder if in not eating meat I was judging nature. Humans are omnivorous. We can indeed subsist without animal products, but on a basic level? Humans are hunter gatherers. So...what does that mean in relation to farming animals? And more importantly... What would it mean if another being raised humans for food as we raise livestock?

Factory farming had always been atrocious to me, but what about small farms? Could farmers truly raise their animals for meat and be entirely humane in the process? I began to do my research....but with a twist. I looked into farming with the question: Could HUMANS be farmed as all other animals are?

This was the general question I started with, but another question quickly followed: " If humans were farmed as livestock and human life was valued no higher than that of a cow, would those who raised humans for consumption be "evil"? Or would they be no different from an ethical farmer in our world who raises pigs or sheep and lives off profit from their flesh?"

With these questions in my head, After Humanity began to come into focus.

Adultfiction Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. You certainly are touching a nerve with your story, given the rise of veganism and the whole debate evolving around cruelty against animals. I never went totally veggie but I have certainly reduced my meat intake and will only eat local meat/ animal produce. I certainly couldn't eat anything I've lived with. Like the rabbit my mother's family fattened for Christmas. Come Christmas, the rabbit kept hopping about and they had potatoes and veg on xmas eve. I think, Hoppy lived a long and prosperous life. And this is where Magnus the farm owner, becomes an interesting character. But for him, it's business, which makes it different, I reckon.

Stacey: Yes exactly, for your mother, Hoppy became a pet but small farmers do indeed care for and connect with their animals.... and then slaughter them. They have to. That is their business. Your rabbit was one animal. Your family might have been thinking about eating him and decided against it but that's very much indicative of a decision made by one not raised on a farm where slaughtering animals is part of having food on the table and not going hungry. Farmers subsist off of their animals for their livelihood.. They learn to make that separation.

Adultfiction: I presume this is where the research comes in?

Stacey: Indeed. I read a lot of blogs from homesteaders and even watched instructional home animal slaughter videos while doing research for After Humanity. I really wanted this book to fairly represent Magnus as a farmer and acknowledge that I do indeed respect those who raise all of their own food. Just because you buy a chicken in the market ( or at a farm stand) and don't slaughter it yourself doesn't mean it didn't die. SOMEONE killed that bird so you could eat it. If you had bought another rabbit, pre-killed, to spare Hoppy, that rabbit would be no different from your pet, the only distinction? That rabbit wouldn't have had an arbitrary connection to you and thus wouldn't matter as much.

Let's be honest, we put arbitrary hierarchies on animals we care about as pets and animals we see as food. Pig = food, Dog = pet.

Adultfiction: I believe there are certain cultures where cats and dogs also end up on the menu. But from a Western perspective this view is certainly true.

Stacey: Yep. I looked into that too ( btw? the dog and cat meat industry IS atrocious for many reasons and not just because dogs and cats are cute. There is no oversight, horrible cruelty...I digress). It's not just dogs and cats though. In the USA horses are definitely off the menu and there are few horse slaughterhouses allowed ( selling their meat is illegal). That's not true in europe/other western countries like Canada and Mexico and horses slaughtered in the US are shipped to countries that consume the product. Again, it's largely arbitrary.

Pigs are also sociable animals. They are in fact smarter than dogs. People do keep potbelly pigs as pets and no one would dream that the cute pet pig should be slaughtered...but then they would go to the store and buy some bacon to fry up. Now this is the argument many vegans make for giving up meat and animal products entirely. That's fine. I respect that decision. I have come to a different one for myself.

I actually have come to greatly respect those who could indeed look their food in the face, acknowledge they had given them the best life they could, and offered them a clean, painless end. As much as it's hard not to say "how could you do it!" If you consume any animal products ( dairy and eggs count because meat is a waste product of those industries) it would be hypocritical to judge people for slaughtering their own livestock. You are willing to EAT it if someone else does the dirty work after all.

Adultfiction: Correct. I enjoy my meat, but I couldn't slaughter it myself. I do want to be sure though, that the animals have been treated properly during their life. What drives me up the wall is this incredible cruelty, cramming pigs into ramshackle lorries just to earn a few more bucks and then carting them all over the place, without water or food, not stunning them properly in the slaughterhouse so they're still alive... I'll stop here.

Stacey: Agreed! This is what led me to vegetarianism for so long. the modern factory meat industry is horrific. I am very much in favor of reform and do believe that part of the issue is our separation from our food. Back in the day? People only ate food they themselves raised. We understood that cycle of life involved in obtaining animal products. No, animal rights wasn't exactly a thing, but still those animals tended to live more freely and happily than factory farmed livestock today. The demand for meat grew, regulations were relaxed to meet that demand and provide a cheap product. It's bad for the animals, it's bad for humans who raise them, those who are forced to work in dangerous slaughterhouses, those who live beside the cesspools of animal waste produced by so many creatures refuse....With people's increased interest in animal welfare I think a lot of headway could be made for animal rights if people only had more understanding of the industry and alternative options.

I'll be honest, and this is just personal opinion. I sometimes wish that animal rights movements would focus less on convincing people to drop all animal products and more on sustainable reform for an industry that hurts both humans and animals. It's hard for me to imagine the world becoming vegan. I CAN see people decreasing their meat consumption or being convinced to lobby for more stringent farming reform to protect animals and the humans involved in the farming industry.

Remember, if everyone became vegan, we could not have any domesticated animals at all. Dogs and cats are not vegan. What would you feed them exactly if there was no meat? I guess you could go hunting? hehe. Humans have lived off domestication of animals for a VERY long time. I don't see that changing but I DO think we need to reconnect with what it means to raise livestock and do far more to ensure that animals we raise are given a good life.

Adultfiction: I couldn't agree more. Now, let's switch from the topic of the story to the way it is told, or rather: the fact that you're not only telling one story but more like two. One from the Rachel's perspective, and one from the perspective of Magnus, the Sibla farmer. Neither is "good" or "evil". They just are who they are.

Stacey: It's true, there are really two distinctive stories/voices in this book. Rachel, our human narrator, and Magnus, the sibla farmer who purchases her. In general I like books that I read (and write) to have substance and address key issues, but I do not enjoy writing that becomes overly didactic. This was a potential danger in writing this story. To help combat any attempt to impose a moral "lesson" on the reader, I wanted to focus on questions and not answers. Having the dual pov helped me do that.

From Rachel's pov, Magnus is indeed somewhat of an antagonist. He bought her at a meat market, ostensibly to one day kill her. Since survival is Rachel's main goal, Magnus's farm and business trafficking in human flesh seems to be in direct conflict with that aim. Yet Magnus is ALSO the one who saves Rachel from a potentially worse fate. He is kind, compassionate, and does indeed care for her. Even in Rachel's mind, his role as "villain" doesn't seem quite right.

From Magnus's pov the reader is granted a VERY different take on the world of the book. Magnus is a sibla. He grew up on a farm when humans were raised for meat. In fact, within his world? Magnus is the epitome of an ethical farmer for all of his animals including his human stock. An advocate for animal rights, Magnus is committed to helping reform the human meat industry and encouraging other farmers to maintain higher ethical standards for raising the animals they consume. That said... he IS engaged in human farming.

Humans are intelligent creatures who can communicate with sibla just fine. How can he justify raising them for meat? Is he a villain for doing so even though he is more interested in their well being than most?

Adultfiction: I don't see him as a villain, but Rachel wouldn't agree with me ... It's the interplay of the two voices that explores this dilemma very aptly I would say. And there's yet another element to the story. I wonder how much you were thinking in terms of "(moral) messages" when writing your story.?

Stacey: Lol! Actually I think Rachel herself has trouble deciding what she feels about Magnus. But sure, there are definitely different moral questions raised given the world I imagined ( I do avoid the presumption of having put forth "moral messages" hehe). Magnus's business is indeed a bit diff from the average farmer in our universe. Human's are not rabbits, they aren't pigs or dogs. They can speak. They can read and write and communicate, presumably at the same level as the sibla. But sibla society has determined that human life is worth less than their own and that humans, in spite of their ability to communicate, are indeed animals worthy of being treated as such. This actually starts to feel a bit more like the african slave trade than animal farming ( although at least the sibla are a diff species). It's definitely complicated! hehe.

In the end, there are a lot of factors the reader must consider in attempting to answer the question "is Magnus evil." He is a product of his world. He does indeed question society and wants to make changes. He goes so far as to have a true friendship with Alice (a human). But...in the end, he sees Alice as an exception. He is willing to be kind to his humans, but not willing to leave the trade. I'm not sure if that makes him a "bad guy." I have actually been very pleased to see than not everyone has the same interpretation of the book nor the different characters. That is intentional.

Real life is not black and white and I like my books to feel real in spite of their speculative elements. When you ask about "messages"? I go back to my first affirmation that this book is more about asking questions than finding answers. I see many messages/questions raised by this book. Questions about slavery, animal farming, humanity itself, eating meat, life and death, the value of human life (or lack thereof), the image we have of women as consumable products....again there are a lot of things one could read into this story and all of them crossed my mind in writing it.

Adultfiction: "Messages" is perhaps too strong a word, raising questions, as you say, is probably better. The undertone is clear but the story truly explores the theme, and the choice is up to the reader.

Stacey: Yes exactly. Putting "messages" in the book implies that I have answers to questions I really don't. I go back and forth on pretty much every one of the questions I raise every day. While writing this book there were days I couldn't eat animal products. It was too much death. I couldn't handle the idea that I was participating in animals dying through eating a chicken sandwich of even eating eggs. I don't judge any reader's reaction to the story though. There are lots of different reactions one might have.

Adultfiction: I must admit when I was reading I kept questioning myself about my eating habits....

Stacey: It's hard not to when you imagine yourself in the place of an animal right? I try to buy as much free-range and small farm as I can and limit meat intake, but even that wasn't enough for days I was heavily in Rachel's pov. When I wrote from Magnus's pov? I again felt ok with the idea of ethical animal rearing. I heard the voices of the homesteaders who actually have a healthier relationship with life and death than I feel I do living so separate from my food sources.

It's important to note...Rachel never gives up meat in the course of this story. None of the humans do. They don't want to be consumed themselves, but that doesn't mean they won't consume other animals. In the end, that's the circle of life.

Adultfiction: Unfortunately yes. But I can see you suffering while writing. Still, you persevered and your novel even won a Watty? How did that feel.

Stacey: Honestly? this was a story I needed to write. The fact that it found readership on wattpad was a bonus hehe. Winning a Watty...it felt surreal. A year ago today I was still struggling to finish this book. There were pieces of the story still missing, but the readership it had gained online was certainly helping keep the pressure on to tie up loose ends.

Finding people willing to journey into this disturbing world with me has been incredible. To see people moved to tears, asking the same questions I asked myself while writing, truly connecting with my characters, it's everything I could have hoped for and it certainly keeps me looking forward to my goal of seeing After Humanity traditionally published in its finished form.

Winning a Watty was particularly awesome because it proves that it's not just "bad boy" stories and fan-fic that succeed on Wattpad. I see a lot of criticism of the awards as not representing diverse fiction...but idk. I was able to snag a Watty with a pretty upsetting, psychological, horror story. After Humanity is not action packed, it has no romance, just a bunch of moral questions and genuine characters in a world of moral ambiguity. It still found readership. To me it's affirmation that people should indeed write the book they feel inspired to write. If you are passionate about your project, no matter what it is, I think readers will see that passion and come along for the ride.

Adultfiction:  I couldn't agree more. Wattpad is NOT only about fanfic, romance, badboys etc. blah. There IS a growing community of people writing not only engaging stories but stories that can easily compete with "properly" published books. This is the age of the internet, and Wattpad has become an established publishing channel. The Wattys, the features all seek to highlight this type of stories, together with the popular ones, the ones that go viral for a variety of reasons. Another question - did you write before you found Wattpad?

Stacey: I did indeed. I actually found out about Wattpad during a panel at a writer's conference on "non traditional ways to snag an agent." Wattpad came up in a discussion on Anna Todd and how a fan-fic story turned into a traditionally published novel. At the time, I had just finished a second draft of my fantasy novel A Dangerous Destiny. I had been writing seriously for about 3 years by then and I thought I would soon be ready to search for an agent. Well fast forward 2 years and that book is now resting ( I went through another draft an a half while posting to wattpad haha) and I have After Humanity completed and it's become my main project.... hehe. You never know where the writing journey will take you I guess.

Though I have only been writing novels for the past seven years roughly, I always enjoyed reading and studied Theater and Comparative religion in college so I was not only delving into a lot of stories and plays and different cultures, I was also writing a lot of papers and analyzing a lot of literature. I think that definitely helped me develope a taste for how stories were meant to come together so I had some experience to guide me.

Finding wattpad however gave me a whole new world of writer friends. The community pulled me in and wouldn't let go. I think it's great though. Writing can be a lonely endeavour and non-writers have trouble sympathizing with the struggle. Discovering Wattpad helped me feel like I had found my tribe.

Adultfiction: Thank you very much for this interview!